There can be valid reasons for holy grail roulette method owners to rent or profit-share, they include:
- More profits than betting alone.
If there is a 50% profit-sharing setup, having multiple players in your team betting simultaneously can multiply what you could earn as a single player with the same base unit.
- Passive income.
If the method is server-walled, then you can sit back, relax and let your team players do the actual betting.
- Full automation via remote bot.
If players are only working as an alternate casino identity with their personal data, a single team owner working as the hub for remote bots can make both sides earn passive income via full automation of every active betting account.
(This is of course the best scenario in our current time and age of online casino betting)
What are your thoughts about this?
Would you participate in such a profit-sharing scheme?
Would you act as a surrogate personal identity for a successful player given sufficient proof?
(Also, what would constitute sufficient/enough proof according to you?)
Many newcomers can surely use a service that provides better winning chances than their martingale-type method while cutting years to their roulette experiences.
Hi Vic,
there is a problem on both sides:
- how honest and reliable is the systems-master
- how honest and reliable are the franchisers
As you should know in forums there are a lot of mysterious people.
I don´t trust anybody
The trouble with the top section proposed concept is that the runners need the bot only till they learn the system by observing only, which most likely wouldn't take long .. then why pay 50% when it can be done on their own terms.
The accounts hub idea makes more sense .. but then again we know how online casinos quickly bar well-performing accounts. In addition, the distribution dna of prngs & digital dealer-only tables differs from land casino ones due to being manipulated .. which degrades the system performance, working in land casinos much better.
So, as much as I would like to like it, I really don't see the viability of it. Unless something else is proposed, it's better to train a few truly trusted runners & send them into B&Ms to achieve the desired result.
Meaning passive income.
Thanks for your input dear friends, lately I've been pondering the following two possible ways for a valid setup:
#1 Player-oriented:
- Flat rate per month (say $100/mo).
- Access to a server tool for the player to enter numbers and receive bets for the next spin in real time.
Player has control of his account(s), system-master has control over his tool but has no information on earnings. I.e. not suitable for profit sharing.
#2: System-master oriented:
- A 24/7 server is rented on the player's country.
- System-master logs into player account and plays at his pace.
- Profit is shared, say at a fair 50% for each side.
This ensures the method is played exactly as intended.
The player only has a passive participation betting-wise, but has to surrender control of the account.
There are other schemes possible such as the system-master using a remote control program like TeamViewer or any other way to control the player's computer.
It has the upside of the player keeping his login data and monitoring exactly what is done, but it also has the downsides of residential internet (a 24/7 server online at a data center is way better in terms of stability).
This way also allows for the possible "trick" of running another casino side-by-side to replicate the bets as seen on the screen without sharing any profits, which leaves the system-master at an undesirable disadvantage, making it a no-no.
In the end, human players can be replaced by bots and the system-master by an online tool but the quality of the system itself -as the core of the operation- keeps on being king.
It's all about the system!
I think the difficulties for the system operator/owner are pretty high.
1. Players will learn the system, copy it and run thier own gig.
2. You never know if they actually place the bets and report rubbish back to the system owner. Solve by players risking their own money and paying a per spin fee. Still won't stop 1.
3. Players do their own side bets or have other partners mirroring their bets. Similar to 1, but only partly solved by 2.
The only way I can see is players pay for a golden goose up front and and also sign a deed of confidentially.
Still the best recipe is to keep things on the low down until the grail is refined and then do a global tour hitting all casinos in Asia and Europe where high bet limits are available. Maybe target each region once a year.
Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 06, 2023, 12:27 PMI think the difficulties for the system operator/owner are pretty high.
1. Players will learn the system, copy it and run thier own gig.
2. You never know if they actually place the bets and report rubbish back to the system owner. Solve by players risking their own money and paying a per spin fee. Still won't stop 1.
3. Players do their own side bets or have other partners mirroring their bets. Similar to 1, but only partly solved by 2.
The only way I can see is players pay for a golden goose up front and and also sign a deed of confidentially.
Still the best recipe is to keep things on the low down until the grail is refined and then do a global tour hitting all casinos in Asia and Europe where high bet limits are available. Maybe target each region once a year.
I don,t think anything signed in an agreement will work...people talk...and if people use the system at the same time ie their friends on one subscription ...they can't be chased..if you have the time and patience to chase the original person its too late anyway....
the only way to do it is a mind boggling phone app based subscription..that can't re engineered and cheap enough....that its not worth re engineering to save a low cost...its better to have 1000 subscriptions at 20 to 30 pounds that the app play will cover the cost....more than 10 members at 100 a pop a month and then try to keep on top of them...that in itself if it gets much more will be hard to keep up with...especially if your using teamviewer and have multiple sessions going on at the same time in different timezones....
tbh I,m thinking along these lines myself as my son in law can do this...my issue is only making it very mind boggling that it can't be reversed engineered....which means in my situation it is very hard to do ..too many bright minds around these forums.....no matter which way I envisage it still comes to the same conclusion...
you need the different payouts to carry you through...you can't do this if you re arrange the table..they then become str8 numbers ....
Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 06, 2023, 11:02 PMQuote from: TwoUp on Jan 06, 2023, 12:27 PMI think the difficulties for the system operator/owner are pretty high.
1. Players will learn the system, copy it and run thier own gig.
2. You never know if they actually place the bets and report rubbish back to the system owner. Solve by players risking their own money and paying a per spin fee. Still won't stop 1.
3. Players do their own side bets or have other partners mirroring their bets. Similar to 1, but only partly solved by 2.
The only way I can see is players pay for a golden goose up front and and also sign a deed of confidentially.
Still the best recipe is to keep things on the low down until the grail is refined and then do a global tour hitting all casinos in Asia and Europe where high bet limits are available. Maybe target each region once a year.
I don,t think anything signed in an agreement will work...people talk...and if people use the system at the same time ie their friends on one subscription ...they can't be chased..if you have the time and patience to chase the original person its too late anyway....
the only way to do it is a mind boggling phone app based subscription..that can't re engineered and cheap enough....that its not worth re engineering to save a low cost...its better to have 1000 subscriptions at 20 to 30 pounds that the app play will cover the cost....more than 10 members at 100 a pop a month and then try to keep on top of them...that in itself if it gets much more will be hard to keep up with...especially if your using teamviewer and have multiple sessions going on at the same time in different timezones....
tbh I,m thinking along these lines myself as my son in law can do this...my issue is only making it very mind boggling that it can't be reversed engineered....which means in my situation it is very hard to do ..too many bright minds around these forums.....no matter which way I envisage it still comes to the same conclusion...
you need the different payouts to carry you through...you can't do this if you re arrange the table..they then become str8 numbers ....
Developing an app is not difficult, including one that has no method logic in the front end to be reverse engineered.
I still don't see the point if the strategy can net a return then you can easily compound to max bet level quickly, and then negotiate your own player limit in VIP gaming.
But for all that effort and the marketing campaign to recruit players and running a business that attracts tax, I would sooner just do a world tour, stay in 5 or 6 star accommodation and play at high stakes tables with a rolling chip program (often called non-negotiable or dead chips) to cut the house edge even further or make money through rebates. AND PAY LITTLE TO NO TAX. That certainly opens up different strategies for washing chips along side the main strategy.
Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 07, 2023, 01:40 AMincluding one that has no method logic in the front end to be reverse engineered
if only it was that easy....it would still have to revert to the main method...you would understand if you knew it..
Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 07, 2023, 01:40 AMI still don't see the point if the strategy can net a return then you can easily compound to max bet level quickly, and then negotiate your own player limit in VIP gaming.
usually agree 100 percent with this..I,m getting older now ..large family expanding with grandchildren...taking up a lot of my time,,,online or bricks and mortar takes a lot of hours up...for me something has to give..
a subscription app that actually pays for itself many times over at a very low subscription cost affordable to any kind of player regardless of financial status at the start would naturally be spread and used especially if its flatbetting ..regardless of how much the app owner gets taxed...its still a passive income and frees up precious time...
5 to 7 hours a day playing roulette takes up precious time day in day out...I,m not as young as I used to be...
Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 08:27 AMits still a passive income and frees up precious time...
My reasons exactly. Passive income and acquired time.
Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 08:27 AMQuote from: TwoUp on Jan 07, 2023, 01:40 AMincluding one that has no method logic in the front end to be reverse engineered
if only it was that easy....it would still have to revert to the main method...you would understand if you knew it..
Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 07, 2023, 01:40 AMI still don't see the point if the strategy can net a return then you can easily compound to max bet level quickly, and then negotiate your own player limit in VIP gaming.
usually agree 100 percent with this..I,m getting older now ..large family expanding with grandchildren...taking up a lot of my time,,,online or bricks and mortar takes a lot of hours up...for me something has to give..
a subscription app that actually pays for itself many times over at a very low subscription cost affordable to any kind of player regardless of financial status at the start would naturally be spread and used especially if its flatbetting ..regardless of how much the app owner gets taxed...its still a passive income and frees up precious time...
5 to 7 hours a day playing roulette takes up precious time day in day out...I,m not as young as I used to be...
Yes I do understand what you're saying it's family commitments and age creeping up.
The main problem is that a golden goose has more utility the longer you use it.
Initially it may be worth $20 profit, because you only risked $100, but over time this dynamic changes. Anyone with a golden goose will keep using it and grow their unit size so now the goose is worth more to that guy some months later than it was on day one.
Then a syndicate gets ahold of it.
I would really think about this dynamic assuming of course you have a goose to share.
Another way to go is to actually setup a syndicate and put the controls in place to protect the cash and audit every bet. Casinos do accommodate syndicated gamblers with body guards/bag men and auditors recording every bet on a laptop made on behalf of those invested in the syndicate.
A casino that gets taken for millions always wants you back, especially if it is in practice accepted to be a non AP game like roulette or baccarat. We have Asian whales who come to Australia (regularly before covid) that can often be bankrolled to $50 million or more and they do the rounds, clean out one casino and then on to the next property and still they don't say no as they want the math to do its thing.
There is a golden goose two up..that wins more than losing flatbetting..
But not in the way you think...I think Victor that I quoted before
..doesn't realise the importance of what he said...
Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 01:54 PMThere is a golden goose two up..that wins more than losing flatbetting..
Congrats! What I ultimately found out (with my betting framework) is that my way needs a progression with sensible sub-cycle RESETS in order to keep the bet sizes in check.
It doesn't chase losses, but aims to win at the averages game.Both bet selection + money management working in tandem.
Now, a bet selection that wins flat betting IS the holy grail...
Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 06, 2023, 12:27 PMI think the difficulties for the system operator/owner are pretty high.
1. Players will learn the system, copy it and run thier own gig.
Personally I don't think this is very plausible. There are literal millions of possible systems, and unless it's very simple, reverse-engineering it would be too much work for the average gambler who signs up. Most gamblers are looking for
easy money. If they're getting a good return as a paying customer, why would they bother putting in the considerable time and effort needed to crack the code? And if the system is so simple that it would be easy to reverse-engineer, it would be unlikely to work.
But if you're worried about this possibility you could throw in a few "dummy" bets here and there to throw potential crackers off the scent.
Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 01:54 PMThere is a golden goose two up..that wins more than losing flatbetting..
Is this first or second hand knowledge? And has it been exhaustively tested? I'm personally skeptical that it can be done. I've seen some systems which have held up amazingly well into 4 standard deviations, but nothing that lasted longer. The law of large numbers is a bitch, lol.
Quote from: BlueBuzzard on Jan 07, 2023, 05:38 PMand unless it's very simple, reverse-engineering it would be too much work for the average gambler who signs up.
When a great system is in place being executed .. is always based on some eternal principles.
Even though this may be posted (mine were & to some extent still are), the hardest task is to assemble them congruently into a shape & form, a dynamic reverberation of it.
When this takes shape & form as a 'current' form /, the complexity is always simplified however complex the purifying & forging of the metal was, it always comes to sharpening the edge.
The observer, however stupid they might be (affect only the amount of time required to grasp), once a great impossibility is realized, it easily gets picked up by & adopted by pretty much the whole civilization in also pretty much on time, taking into the account the ripple effect.
May that be in the scope of an individual or civilization, its always about a critical mass -- may that be the pieces of information & their dynamic, or numbers of them respectively.
With something simplified to the fullest extent of maximizing the edge, however complex = multi-level &or multi-dimensional, having the whole thing revolving in front of one repeatedly, again .. its just a question of time filling in the gaps.
Quote from: BlueBuzzard on Jan 07, 2023, 06:05 PMIs this first or second hand knowledge? And has it been exhaustively tested? I'm personally skeptical that it can be done. I've seen some systems which have held up amazingly well into 4 standard deviations, but nothing that lasted longer. The law of large numbers is a bitch, lol.
nothing to do with standard deviations...law of large numbers do not apply...all is contained in the pigeon hole principle...
and no its not secondhand knowledge...its first.....vics comment I quoted is virtually near enough...trd is close..
two ups stats is along the way...or should I say his in time part is where it evens up...but that in itself isn,t enough..I dare say the poster on the other forum he quoted has may have identified it...
the reality is for this to work isn,t instant...its long ..its tedious and time consuming...long hours...its draining.....
Quote from: BlueBuzzard on Jan 07, 2023, 05:38 PMPersonally I don't think this is very plausible. There are literal millions of possible systems, and unless it's very simple, reverse-engineering it would be too much work for the average gambler who signs up. Most gamblers are looking for easy money. If they're getting a good return as a paying customer, why would they bother putting in the considerable time and effort needed to crack the code? And if the system is so simple that it would be easy to reverse-engineer, it would be unlikely to work.
But if you're worried about this possibility you could throw in a few "dummy" bets here and there to throw potential crackers off the scent
this is the hardest part...you can see dummy bets when its switched to main bet...dummy bets may lose...you then have to compensate with main bet...you then have to work your way back up to losses flatbetting....this then becomes obvious...you cannot afford to dummy bet...your game will be longer still and blatantly obvious what you are doing ...its long enough already...
I,ll do a one spin number absolute random results where the target bet will still conform to stats using the gaps distance tracker as its the last one I uploaded...on the other thread...not about pigeonhole principle but how it will hold up to past results don,t matter...but on a 1 spin bet it,ll still conform better or even to an ec bet...
but can you apply the pigeonhole principle to it? I,m not saying you can or cannot....how would you apply it?
do you know enough?
a lot of people think random betting holds up to betting a system...yet the main thought is standard deviations ...you know this doesn't work...its not contained....but random betting totally needs to be partially structured...even if its not going off past results....but that spin itself...in my mind anyway...as its just an example just go easy on me...
Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 08:03 PMQuote from: BlueBuzzard on Jan 07, 2023, 06:05 PMIs this first or second hand knowledge? And has it been exhaustively tested? I'm personally skeptical that it can be done. I've seen some systems which have held up amazingly well into 4 standard deviations, but nothing that lasted longer. The law of large numbers is a bitch, lol.
nothing to do with standard deviations...law of large numbers do not apply...all is contained in the pigeon hole principle...
Not sure what you mean... standard deviation is just a measure of dispersion or variation, and the LLN means that as you get more spins or make more bets the outcome will get closer to the expectation. The concepts apply to whatever system you're using, including ones based on the PHP.
Regarding the dummy bets, you're right that it may introduce losses, but if chosen carefully it need have much of an impact on the main system's edge. As to the possibility of reverse-engineering in general, that has always been a possibility and yet roulette still exists. Any time anyone plays roulette for real money someone is watching. These two facts suggest that either roulette is unbeatable, or that it's beatable but those who know how to beat it haven't had their systems reverse-engineered. I prefer to believe the latter. O:-)
After all, there are many systems and products used everyday by millions, and yet they've never been successfully copied because they are trade secrets and remain secret. Take Coca-cola for example, it's been around for 130 years and yet only the company knows the exact ingredients.
Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 08:39 PMI,ll do a one spin number absolute random results where the target bet will still conform to stats using the gaps distance tracker as its the last one I uploaded...on the other thread...not about pigeonhole principle but how it will hold up to past results don,t matter...but on a 1 spin bet it,ll still conform better or even to an ec bet...
but can you apply the pigeonhole principle to it? I,m not saying you can or cannot....how would you apply it?
do you know enough?
a lot of people think random betting holds up to betting a system...yet the main thought is standard deviations ...you know this doesn't work...its not contained....but random betting totally needs to be partially structured...even if its not going off past results....but that spin itself...in my mind anyway...as its just an example just go easy on me...
I have never seen an example how the pigeon hole principle (PHP) can actually provide an advantage to the bettor. It's a great tool for mathematical proofs and we can also look at results retrospectively and see it obviously confirmed, but where does one get an advantage for the next bet with the PHP given we do not know which hole the pigeon will choose?
Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 09, 2023, 08:18 AMI have never seen an example how the pigeon hole principle (PHP) can actually provide an advantage to the bettor.
Me neither. There are lots of interesting and surprising applications, but for roulette we're concerned with predicting the next number or group, and I don't see how the PHP can help.
Hmm. Flat betting Holy Grail will definitely be the one and only holy grail but since we can not speculate as to which bets will win more than they lose by any known methodology(to the best of my knowledge), I do not think it is even possible. Possibly, a flat bet holy grail could lie in hot vs cold or hit vs unhit numbers in a given cycle.
My idea of an EC bet holy grail is having a money management, checking extreme negative variance, keeping amount of bets under control in the worst times along with earning all back in average patch there after. It is a cumbersome process but has been earning for years with some tweaks for me.
Quote from: Albalaha on Jan 15, 2023, 02:35 PMa flat bet holy grail could lie in hot vs cold or hit vs unhit numbers in a given cycle.
completely incorrect... you can only go with the wheel..on that spin....
Quote from: Albalaha on Jan 15, 2023, 02:35 PMwe can not speculate as to which bets will win more than they lose by any known methodology(
you don't speculate...dyslexic comes to mind....
In my many years of life, I can say unequivocally, and through decades of experience, that the best overall business opportunities rest in partnerships. The upside far outweigh the down. Trust is obviously crucial and the financial piece becomes secondary to a purpose. That purpose for this topic has not yet been defined. Having more money is not a purpose, removing debt is not a purpose, increasing wealth is not a purpose. A purpose provides those things as ancillary benefit.
I believe there are 5 or 6 who have responded to Vic's topic here. Think if a partnership were formed and those 5/6 people contributed an equal amount with a goal of doubling their base contribution annually, with wins being reinvested at an agreed upon percentage, and share 50% of any profit to a cause or purpose decided by the group. Could it make a difference somewhere in the world? Hope so.
Welcome dear
@Wally Gator, I do ponder about this scenario. The most ideal way for benefiting a certain
group of players would be a tightly-coupled team indeed, with fair/equal profit sharing.
The system owner would of course contribute the viable method as his share, which is more than fair given that it is this very contribution what sits at the core of the operation and actually makes it work.
Thanks for your participation in the forum!
Quote from: BlueBuzzard on Jan 08, 2023, 09:46 AMTake Coca-cola for example, it's been around for 130 years and yet only the company knows the exact ingredients.
It contains cocaine as well...bottoms up!!
Quote from: Wally Gator on Feb 07, 2023, 03:43 AMIn my many years of life, I can say unequivocally, and through decades of experience, that the best overall business opportunities rest in partnerships. The upside far outweigh the down. Trust is obviously crucial and the financial piece becomes secondary to a purpose. That purpose for this topic has not yet been defined. Having more money is not a purpose, removing debt is not a purpose, increasing wealth is not a purpose. A purpose provides those things as ancillary benefit.
I believe there are 5 or 6 who have responded to Vic's topic here. Think if a partnership were formed and those 5/6 people contributed an equal amount with a goal of doubling their base contribution annually, with wins being reinvested at an agreed upon percentage, and share 50% of any profit to a cause or purpose decided by the group. Could it make a difference somewhere in the world? Hope so.
I've highlighted a part of your post, could you elaborate further?
A partnership between team members doesn't have to be equal in its mutual capital contribution, let's assume that there are 6 funding members, the 1st member contributes 25,000 , the 2nd 12,000 , the 3rd 6,000 , the 4th 3,000, the 5th 1,500 and finally the 6th 750 USD, the total capital stands on 48,250 during its initial foundation, the greater shareholder, that's to say the one who contributed a quarter of 100K, is the rightful owner of 51.81% out of the total net profit.
The 2nd greatest shareholder contributed 12 grand, therefore he/she holds the right of 24.87% out of the total net profit, the same for the rest, regardless of the total of members and the capital invested per individual, all will be rewarded the equivalent of their personal contribution.
All contributed amounts would be deposited to a joint account especially created for such cooperation, as the total invested capital grows the same for each respective percentage which is always according to the total invested capital.
If some members/investors would join later, the profit percentages from the total capital shall be redistributed, for example a new investor contributes 50,000 thus the standing total becomes 98,250 ,the last and greatest shareholder will rightfully own 49.1% out of the total net profit, the 2nd greatest with 25,000 will has 25.44% out of the total net profit and so on...
There could be a mutual commitment (optionally) in the form of a legal document which would determine the duration of the syndicate's operations, with an option to extend that duration on its end if all sides agree, for those who don't wish to continue they may leave after the first expiration date, also a non disclosure commitment could be established among all participating members (optionally).
If someone thinks that he/she could run away after witnessing the system in action, then he/she would be disappointed because by leaving he/she forfeits not only any profit that might have occurred till that time, but his/her initial investment as well!
Apparently such scheme is meant exclusively for B&M casinos' endeavors, not online, you may call me prejudiced but I don't like online bookmakers and casinos!