How should the Holy Grail system be billed?

Started by VLS, Dec 10, 2022, 12:24 AM

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VLS

There can be valid reasons for holy grail roulette method owners to rent or profit-share, they include:

- More profits than betting alone.

If there is a 50% profit-sharing setup, having multiple players in your team betting simultaneously can multiply what you could earn as a single player with the same base unit.

- Passive income.

If the method is server-walled, then you can sit back, relax and let your team players do the actual betting.

- Full automation via remote bot.

If players are only working as an alternate casino identity with their personal data, a single team owner working as the hub for remote bots can make both sides earn passive income via full automation of every active betting account.

(This is of course the best scenario in our current time and age of online casino betting)



What are your thoughts about this?

Would you participate in such a profit-sharing scheme?

Would you act as a surrogate personal identity for a successful player given sufficient proof?

(Also, what would constitute sufficient/enough proof according to you?)



Many newcomers can surely use a service that provides better winning chances than their martingale-type method while cutting years to their roulette experiences.
Email/Paypal: betselection@gmail.com

-- Victor

winkel

Hi Vic,

there is a problem on both sides:
- how honest and reliable is the systems-master
- how honest and reliable are the franchisers

As you should know in forums there are a lot of mysterious people.
I donĀ“t trust anybody

HardMan

The trouble with the top section proposed concept is that the runners need the bot only till they learn the system by observing only, which most likely wouldn't take long .. then why pay 50% when it can be done on their own terms.

The accounts hub idea makes more sense .. but then again we know how online casinos quickly bar well-performing accounts. In addition, the distribution dna of prngs & digital dealer-only tables differs from land casino ones due to being manipulated .. which degrades the system performance, working in land casinos much better.

So, as much as I would like to like it, I really don't see the viability of it. Unless something else is proposed, it's better to train a few truly trusted runners & send them into B&Ms to achieve the desired result.


HardMan


VLS

Thanks for your input dear friends, lately I've been pondering the following two possible ways for a valid setup:

#1 Player-oriented:

- Flat rate per month (say $100/mo).
- Access to a server tool for the player to enter numbers and receive bets for the next spin in real time.

Player has control of his account(s), system-master has control over his tool but has no information on earnings. I.e. not suitable for profit sharing.

#2: System-master oriented:

- A 24/7 server is rented on the player's country.
- System-master logs into player account and plays at his pace.
- Profit is shared, say at a fair 50% for each side.

This ensures the method is played exactly as intended.

The player only has a passive participation betting-wise, but has to surrender control of the account.




There are other schemes possible such as the system-master using a remote control program like TeamViewer or any other way to control the player's computer.

It has the upside of the player keeping his login data and monitoring exactly what is done, but it also has the downsides of residential internet (a 24/7 server online at a data center is way better in terms of stability).

This way also allows for the possible "trick" of running another casino side-by-side to replicate the bets as seen on the screen without sharing any profits, which leaves the system-master at an undesirable disadvantage, making it a no-no.



In the end, human players can be replaced by bots and the system-master by an online tool but the quality of the system itself -as the core of the operation- keeps on being king.

It's all about the system!
Email/Paypal: betselection@gmail.com

-- Victor

TwoUp

I think the difficulties for the system operator/owner are pretty high.

1. Players will learn the system, copy it and run thier own gig.

2. You never know if they actually place the bets and report rubbish back to the system owner. Solve by players risking their own money and paying a per spin fee. Still won't stop 1.

3. Players do their own side bets or have other partners mirroring their bets. Similar to 1, but only partly solved by 2.

The only way I can see is players pay for a golden goose up front and and also sign a deed of confidentially.

Still the best recipe is to keep things on the low down until the grail is refined and then do a global tour hitting all casinos in Asia and Europe where high bet limits are available. Maybe target each region once a year.


6th-sense

Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 06, 2023, 12:27 PMI think the difficulties for the system operator/owner are pretty high.

1. Players will learn the system, copy it and run thier own gig.

2. You never know if they actually place the bets and report rubbish back to the system owner. Solve by players risking their own money and paying a per spin fee. Still won't stop 1.

3. Players do their own side bets or have other partners mirroring their bets. Similar to 1, but only partly solved by 2.

The only way I can see is players pay for a golden goose up front and and also sign a deed of confidentially.

Still the best recipe is to keep things on the low down until the grail is refined and then do a global tour hitting all casinos in Asia and Europe where high bet limits are available. Maybe target each region once a year.



I don,t think anything signed in an agreement will work...people talk...and if people use the system at the same time ie their friends on one subscription ...they can't be chased..if you have the time and patience to chase the original person its too late anyway....

the only way to do it is a mind boggling phone app based subscription..that can't re engineered and cheap enough....that its not worth re engineering to save a low cost...its better to have 1000 subscriptions at 20 to 30 pounds that the app play will cover the cost....more than 10 members at 100 a pop a month and then try to keep on top of them...that in itself if it gets much more will be hard to keep up with...especially if your using teamviewer and have multiple sessions going on at the same time in different timezones....

tbh I,m thinking along these lines myself as my son in law can do this...my issue is only making it very mind boggling that it can't be reversed engineered....which means in my situation it is very hard to do ..too many bright minds around these forums.....no matter which way I envisage it still comes to the same conclusion...

you need the different payouts to carry you through...you can't do this if you re arrange the table..they then become str8 numbers ....


TwoUp

Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 06, 2023, 11:02 PM
Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 06, 2023, 12:27 PMI think the difficulties for the system operator/owner are pretty high.

1. Players will learn the system, copy it and run thier own gig.

2. You never know if they actually place the bets and report rubbish back to the system owner. Solve by players risking their own money and paying a per spin fee. Still won't stop 1.

3. Players do their own side bets or have other partners mirroring their bets. Similar to 1, but only partly solved by 2.

The only way I can see is players pay for a golden goose up front and and also sign a deed of confidentially.

Still the best recipe is to keep things on the low down until the grail is refined and then do a global tour hitting all casinos in Asia and Europe where high bet limits are available. Maybe target each region once a year.



I don,t think anything signed in an agreement will work...people talk...and if people use the system at the same time ie their friends on one subscription ...they can't be chased..if you have the time and patience to chase the original person its too late anyway....

the only way to do it is a mind boggling phone app based subscription..that can't re engineered and cheap enough....that its not worth re engineering to save a low cost...its better to have 1000 subscriptions at 20 to 30 pounds that the app play will cover the cost....more than 10 members at 100 a pop a month and then try to keep on top of them...that in itself if it gets much more will be hard to keep up with...especially if your using teamviewer and have multiple sessions going on at the same time in different timezones....

tbh I,m thinking along these lines myself as my son in law can do this...my issue is only making it very mind boggling that it can't be reversed engineered....which means in my situation it is very hard to do ..too many bright minds around these forums.....no matter which way I envisage it still comes to the same conclusion...

you need the different payouts to carry you through...you can't do this if you re arrange the table..they then become str8 numbers ....




Developing an app is not difficult, including one that has no method logic in the front end to be reverse engineered.

I still don't see the point if the strategy can net a return then you can easily compound to max bet level quickly, and then negotiate your own player limit in VIP gaming.

But for all that effort and the marketing campaign to recruit players and running a business that attracts tax, I would sooner just do a world tour, stay in 5 or 6 star accommodation and play at high stakes tables with a rolling chip program (often called non-negotiable or dead chips) to cut the house edge even further or make money through rebates. AND PAY LITTLE TO NO TAX. That certainly opens up different strategies for washing chips along side the main strategy.





6th-sense

Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 07, 2023, 01:40 AMincluding one that has no method logic in the front end to be reverse engineered

if only it was that easy....it would still have to revert to the main method...you would understand if you knew it..

Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 07, 2023, 01:40 AMI still don't see the point if the strategy can net a return then you can easily compound to max bet level quickly, and then negotiate your own player limit in VIP gaming.

usually agree 100 percent with this..I,m getting older now ..large family expanding with grandchildren...taking up a lot of my time,,,online or bricks and mortar takes a lot of hours up...for me something has to give..

a subscription app that actually pays for itself many times over at a very low subscription cost affordable to any kind of player regardless of financial status at the start would naturally be spread and used especially if its flatbetting ..regardless of how much the app owner gets taxed...its still a passive income and frees up precious time...
5 to 7 hours a day playing roulette takes up precious time day in day out...I,m not as young as I used to be...

VLS

Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 08:27 AMits still a passive income and frees up precious time...

My reasons exactly. Passive income and acquired time.
Email/Paypal: betselection@gmail.com

-- Victor

TwoUp

Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 08:27 AM
Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 07, 2023, 01:40 AMincluding one that has no method logic in the front end to be reverse engineered

if only it was that easy....it would still have to revert to the main method...you would understand if you knew it..

Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 07, 2023, 01:40 AMI still don't see the point if the strategy can net a return then you can easily compound to max bet level quickly, and then negotiate your own player limit in VIP gaming.

usually agree 100 percent with this..I,m getting older now ..large family expanding with grandchildren...taking up a lot of my time,,,online or bricks and mortar takes a lot of hours up...for me something has to give..

a subscription app that actually pays for itself many times over at a very low subscription cost affordable to any kind of player regardless of financial status at the start would naturally be spread and used especially if its flatbetting ..regardless of how much the app owner gets taxed...its still a passive income and frees up precious time...
5 to 7 hours a day playing roulette takes up precious time day in day out...I,m not as young as I used to be...


Yes I do understand what you're saying it's family commitments and age creeping up.

The main problem is that a golden goose has more utility the longer you use it.

Initially it may be worth $20 profit, because you only risked $100, but over time this dynamic changes. Anyone with a golden goose will keep using it and grow their unit size so now the goose is worth more to that guy some months later than it was on day one.

Then a syndicate gets ahold of it.

I would really think about this dynamic assuming of course you have a goose to share.

Another way to go is to actually setup a syndicate and put the controls in place to protect the cash and audit every bet. Casinos do accommodate syndicated gamblers with body guards/bag men and auditors recording every bet on a laptop made on behalf of those invested in the syndicate.

A casino that gets taken for millions always wants you back, especially if it is in practice accepted to be a non AP game like roulette or baccarat. We have Asian whales who come to Australia (regularly before covid) that can often be bankrolled to $50 million or more and they do the rounds, clean out one casino and then on to the next property and still they don't say no as they want the math to do its thing.



6th-sense

There is a golden goose two up..that wins more than losing flatbetting..

But not in the way you think...I think Victor that I quoted before
..doesn't realise the importance of what he said...

VLS

Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 01:54 PMThere is a golden goose two up..that wins more than losing flatbetting..

Congrats! What I ultimately found out (with my betting framework) is that my way needs a progression with sensible sub-cycle RESETS in order to keep the bet sizes in check.

It doesn't chase losses, but aims to win at the averages game.

Both bet selection + money management working in tandem.

Now, a bet selection that wins flat betting IS the holy grail...
Email/Paypal: betselection@gmail.com

-- Victor

BlueBuzzard

Quote from: TwoUp on Jan 06, 2023, 12:27 PMI think the difficulties for the system operator/owner are pretty high.

1. Players will learn the system, copy it and run thier own gig.

Personally I don't think this is very plausible. There are literal millions of possible systems, and unless it's very simple, reverse-engineering it would be too much work for the average gambler who signs up. Most gamblers are looking for easy money. If they're getting a good return as a paying customer, why would they bother putting in the considerable time and effort needed to crack the code? And if the system is so simple that it would be easy to reverse-engineer, it would be unlikely to work.

But if you're worried about this possibility you could throw in a few "dummy" bets here and there to throw potential crackers off the scent.

BlueBuzzard

Quote from: 6th-sense on Jan 07, 2023, 01:54 PMThere is a golden goose two up..that wins more than losing flatbetting..

Is this first or second hand knowledge? And has it been exhaustively tested? I'm personally skeptical that it can be done. I've seen some systems which have held up amazingly well into 4 standard deviations, but nothing that lasted longer. The law of large numbers is a bitch, lol.